Skeptical Buddhism
@skepticalbuddhism.bsky.social
asks how well we've understood what the Buddha taught, as we see him in our oldest versions of his talks. By going back to those ancient texts, and studying the culture of his time, can we get a more accurate sense of it? An iconoclastic Secular Buddhism.
1/ The central section of Dependent Arising (DA), which we're calling "Rituals", using the Buddha's metaphorical word for our habits of thought, can be seen as the best-understood part of the lesson, since it deals with our experience of the here-and-now.
#SB40of10k
#SB40of10k
November 8, 2025 at 7:02 PM
1/ The central section of Dependent Arising (DA), which we're calling "Rituals", using the Buddha's metaphorical word for our habits of thought, can be seen as the best-understood part of the lesson, since it deals with our experience of the here-and-now.
#SB40of10k
#SB40of10k
20/ I was rereading Patrick Olivelle's "Upanisads" when I encountered one of those riddling phrases in the Bṛihadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad that seemed to match up with my theory, though I admit to being a bit puzzled by the riddle, even after reading Olivelle's note on it
November 1, 2025 at 2:40 PM
20/ I was rereading Patrick Olivelle's "Upanisads" when I encountered one of those riddling phrases in the Bṛihadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad that seemed to match up with my theory, though I admit to being a bit puzzled by the riddle, even after reading Olivelle's note on it
8/ In the process, the Buddha uses *bhava* and *vibhava*. Bodhi translates these as "being and non-being" though his footnote clarifies his understanding that what these two represent are commonly-held views in the Buddha's time and culture. I generally agree, but though I understand…
![MN 11 [pts M i 65] translated by Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi. Within the text an arrow points from the number "170" at the end of paragraph 6 to the footnote numbered 170.
Paragraph 6.
“Bhikkhus, there are these two views: the view of being and the view of non-being. Any recluses or brahmins who rely on the view of being, adopt the view of being, accept the view of being, are opposed to the view of non-being. Any recluses or brahmins who rely on the view of non-being, adopt the view of non-being, accept the view of non-being, are opposed to the view of being.170
Footnote 170
The view of being (bhavadiṭṭ) is eternalism, the belief in an eternal self; the view of non-being (vibhavadiṭṭhi) is annihilationism, the denial of any principle of continuity as a basis for rebirth and kammic retribution. The adoption of one view entailing opposition to the other ties up with the earlier statement that the goal is for one who does not favour and oppose.](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreih4qwjve6jxohmuaumjj5cvss62tgapl6tizgcqutezhxkz42vjgm@jpeg)
November 1, 2025 at 2:40 PM
8/ In the process, the Buddha uses *bhava* and *vibhava*. Bodhi translates these as "being and non-being" though his footnote clarifies his understanding that what these two represent are commonly-held views in the Buddha's time and culture. I generally agree, but though I understand…
5/ In Bhante Gunaratana's book "Dependent Origination in Plain English", he describes *vibhavataṇhā* as a craving for annihilation, as we see in the snippet below. This is the sort of description that is common these days.
November 1, 2025 at 2:40 PM
5/ In Bhante Gunaratana's book "Dependent Origination in Plain English", he describes *vibhavataṇhā* as a craving for annihilation, as we see in the snippet below. This is the sort of description that is common these days.
8/ The other definition is found in details about DA's *upādāna*. In the sutta snippet below, the Buddha defines the four kinds of clinging as sensual pleasures (*kāma*), views (*diṭṭhi*), "rules and observances* (*sīlabbattā*), and "a doctrine of self" — literally "self-view" (*attavāda*).
![Excerpts from MN 11 [pts M i 66] translated by Bhikkhus Bodhi and Nanamoli
9. “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clinging. What four? Clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.
10. “Though certain recluses and brahmins claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging, they do not completely describe the full understanding of all kinds of clinging. They describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures without describing the full understanding of clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self. Why is that? Those good recluses and brahmins do not understand these three instances of clinging as they actually are. Therefore, though they claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging, they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures without describing the full understanding of clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.
(ellipse indicating some repetitive variations are left out)
12. “Though certain recluses and brahmins claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging…they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self... 173
(Footnote follows)
173 This passage clearly states that the critical factor differentiating the Buddha’s teaching from all other religious and philosophical creeds is its “full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.” This means, in effect, that the Buddha alone is able to show how to overcome all views of self by developing penetration of the truth of non-self. Since the other spiritual teachers lack this understanding of non-self, their claims to fully understand the three other kinds of clinging are also suspect.](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreif7paioaucgimq3ef5j2mea7dnpew2jcqjggg43zxybpzp7eavsga@jpeg)
October 25, 2025 at 11:44 PM
8/ The other definition is found in details about DA's *upādāna*. In the sutta snippet below, the Buddha defines the four kinds of clinging as sensual pleasures (*kāma*), views (*diṭṭhi*), "rules and observances* (*sīlabbattā*), and "a doctrine of self" — literally "self-view" (*attavāda*).
7/ There are two definitions of "clinging" in the suttas, used in two different situations. Perhaps the one we see most often has the five *khanda* — seen as components of one's self or identity — as what gets clung to. In the quote below, *saṅkhārā* is translated as "fabrications".
![Excerpts from SN 22.83 [pts S iii 105] translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"'It's with possessiveness, friend Ananda, that there is "I am," not without possessiveness. And through possessiveness of what is there "I am," not without possessiveness? Through possessiveness of form there is "I am," not without possessiveness. Through possessiveness of feeling... perception... fabrications... Through possessiveness of consciousness there is "I am," not without possessiveness.
"'Just as if a young woman — or a man — youthful, fond of adornment, contemplating the image of her face in a mirror, pure & bright, or in a bowl of clear water, would look with possessiveness, not without possessiveness. In the same way, through possessiveness of form there is "I am," not without possessiveness. Through possessiveness of feeling... perception... fabrications... Through possessiveness of consciousness there is "I am," not without possessiveness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.083.than.html](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreidhbzwzyfs2sghsqfcppdxgh4peobdd4qe6dvr4gnosn4imtad6im@jpeg)
October 25, 2025 at 11:44 PM
7/ There are two definitions of "clinging" in the suttas, used in two different situations. Perhaps the one we see most often has the five *khanda* — seen as components of one's self or identity — as what gets clung to. In the quote below, *saṅkhārā* is translated as "fabrications".
5/ As noted in Thanissaro's description of the Vedic understanding of fire, back in thread #SB29of10k, post /8, fire was perceived as clinging to its fuel, effectively trapped by it, which is where we get the translation "clinging" from.
October 25, 2025 at 11:44 PM
5/ As noted in Thanissaro's description of the Vedic understanding of fire, back in thread #SB29of10k, post /8, fire was perceived as clinging to its fuel, effectively trapped by it, which is where we get the translation "clinging" from.
3/ In the sutta snippet below we find the Buddha trying to explain to Vaccha why he wouldn't say that he or any enlightened person exists or doesn't exist, nor does both or neither, after death. Where does a fire go when it no longer has fuel? he asked, and the answer is that we can't actually say.
![Excerpt from a translation of MN 72 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. [pts M i 487]
"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"
"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreidpatwawh4xhauzrgpjoyk6srm66eucijswawdapirf3nb5u3on7e@jpeg)
October 25, 2025 at 11:44 PM
3/ In the sutta snippet below we find the Buddha trying to explain to Vaccha why he wouldn't say that he or any enlightened person exists or doesn't exist, nor does both or neither, after death. Where does a fire go when it no longer has fuel? he asked, and the answer is that we can't actually say.
37/ Craving, where it all begins is where it can end … #SB37of10K
… The Buddha has told us that it is with the arising of craving we get our earliest chance to break the chain of events leading to dukkha. Maybe that's why its the first of the very detailed links.
… The Buddha has told us that it is with the arising of craving we get our earliest chance to break the chain of events leading to dukkha. Maybe that's why its the first of the very detailed links.
July 12, 2025 at 8:00 PM
37/ Craving, where it all begins is where it can end … #SB37of10K
… The Buddha has told us that it is with the arising of craving we get our earliest chance to break the chain of events leading to dukkha. Maybe that's why its the first of the very detailed links.
… The Buddha has told us that it is with the arising of craving we get our earliest chance to break the chain of events leading to dukkha. Maybe that's why its the first of the very detailed links.
1/ Some interesting patterns begin once we get to craving. Though craving is sometimes described the way the earlier "feeling" and "contact" are described, as having the quality of arising from the sense organ that triggered it, it is also given a more specific, three-part definition.
#SB37of10k
#SB37of10k
July 12, 2025 at 7:54 PM
1/ Some interesting patterns begin once we get to craving. Though craving is sometimes described the way the earlier "feeling" and "contact" are described, as having the quality of arising from the sense organ that triggered it, it is also given a more specific, three-part definition.
#SB37of10k
#SB37of10k
36/ Feeling as meaning what I say when I say it … #SB36of10K
… The second term in the "Rituals" section is pretty straightforward but a bit vague without the context of what comes before and after it.
… The second term in the "Rituals" section is pretty straightforward but a bit vague without the context of what comes before and after it.
July 5, 2025 at 10:03 PM
36/ Feeling as meaning what I say when I say it … #SB36of10K
… The second term in the "Rituals" section is pretty straightforward but a bit vague without the context of what comes before and after it.
… The second term in the "Rituals" section is pretty straightforward but a bit vague without the context of what comes before and after it.
8/ Here in DA, as we saw in this image in the last thread, one of the things we know about it is that even if we understand DA and are working toward practicing what it teaches, even if we a sense contact might be of the sort DA is pointing out, we aren't stopping events before feeling.
![A quote from SN 12.44 [pts S ii 73] translated by Bhiihu Bodhi:
“In dependence on the ear and sounds ... In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes ... In dependence on the body and tactile objects ... In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.
The earlier paragraph included eye and forms, so all six senses are represented. "The meeting of the three is contact" is underlined in red and highlighted in yellow. Below, in red, it says "Contact defined includes". "In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises" is underlined in blue with an arrow at the left end of the line. Below, in blue it says "drives made real (looking back)". "With contact as condition, feeling" is underlined in green, with an arrow at the right end of the line. Below in green it says, "allowing DA to move forward."](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreihnsfplnkllix4br6m635ea45gyxah5a6b5yddu5xrqfvrv7khyqa@jpeg)
July 5, 2025 at 11:18 AM
8/ Here in DA, as we saw in this image in the last thread, one of the things we know about it is that even if we understand DA and are working toward practicing what it teaches, even if we a sense contact might be of the sort DA is pointing out, we aren't stopping events before feeling.
1/ The next link in the "Rituals" section of Dependent Arising (DA) is usually translated (from *vedanā*) as "feeling" though recently "experience" has been suggested (e.g. by Ajahn Brahm) and I like it, though I'm still on the fence about it.
#SB36of10k
#SB36of10k
July 5, 2025 at 11:18 AM
1/ The next link in the "Rituals" section of Dependent Arising (DA) is usually translated (from *vedanā*) as "feeling" though recently "experience" has been suggested (e.g. by Ajahn Brahm) and I like it, though I'm still on the fence about it.
#SB36of10k
#SB36of10k
30/ Why call the middle section "Rituals"? … #SB30of10K
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
June 28, 2025 at 8:15 PM
30/ Why call the middle section "Rituals"? … #SB30of10K
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
29/ Why call the middle section "Rituals"? … #SB29of10K
… The first of three posts offering justification and evidence for calling the middle section "Rituals". This first post covers "clinging" and "craving" as we work backwards through the four links.
… The first of three posts offering justification and evidence for calling the middle section "Rituals". This first post covers "clinging" and "craving" as we work backwards through the four links.
June 28, 2025 at 8:15 PM
29/ Why call the middle section "Rituals"? … #SB29of10K
… The first of three posts offering justification and evidence for calling the middle section "Rituals". This first post covers "clinging" and "craving" as we work backwards through the four links.
… The first of three posts offering justification and evidence for calling the middle section "Rituals". This first post covers "clinging" and "craving" as we work backwards through the four links.
21/ In the last half of the sutta quoted up top, the Buddha does provide us with the necessary insight into the earliest moment in which we can break the chain: it falls between feeling and craving. More on that when we get to those terms.
June 28, 2025 at 11:56 AM
21/ In the last half of the sutta quoted up top, the Buddha does provide us with the necessary insight into the earliest moment in which we can break the chain: it falls between feeling and craving. More on that when we get to those terms.
3/ Below is a quote from the sutta in which the Buddha defined each link in DA, starting at the end and working backward. This makes it a description of events that have already happened, which is a reason why "feeling" is included in it, as well as "contact."
www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/...
www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/...
![A quote from SN 12.s [pts S ii 3] translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, in which the Buddha defines name-and-form"
And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreicmr7vk4zwlsyykzwfnr6rabka7yd5iyhzwlwwawetpyaynnpcopi@jpeg)
June 28, 2025 at 11:56 AM
3/ Below is a quote from the sutta in which the Buddha defined each link in DA, starting at the end and working backward. This makes it a description of events that have already happened, which is a reason why "feeling" is included in it, as well as "contact."
www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/...
www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/...
2/ Contact is defined by a moment in which a sense (DA link #5 six senses) meets its physical or mental object (link #4, name-and-form) causing the rising of that sense's particular form of consciousness (link #3).
![A quote from SN 12.44 [pts S ii 73] translated by Bhiihu Bodhi:
“In dependence on the ear and sounds ... In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes ... In dependence on the body and tactile objects ... In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.
The earlier paragraph included eye and forms, so all six senses are represented. "The meeting of the three is contact" is underlined in red and highlighted in yellow. Below, in red, it says "Contact defined includes". "In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises" is underlined in blue with an arrow at the left end of the line. Below, in blue it says "drives made real (looking back)". "With contact as condition, feeling" is underlined in green, with an arrow at the right end of the line. Below in green it says, "allowing DA to move forward."](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreidshroo3ykryjva5jtygsr2xwwcmk6tpa245n53zkaebqb3kb545y@jpeg)
June 28, 2025 at 11:56 AM
2/ Contact is defined by a moment in which a sense (DA link #5 six senses) meets its physical or mental object (link #4, name-and-form) causing the rising of that sense's particular form of consciousness (link #3).
1/ In this thread we're going to concentrate on what, at first glance, is the simplest of the twelve links of dependent arising (DA), and that is contact (*phassa*). And though it is -- it really is -- simple, it carries a lot of weight because it's a pivot point.
#SB35of10k
#SB35of10k
June 28, 2025 at 11:56 AM
1/ In this thread we're going to concentrate on what, at first glance, is the simplest of the twelve links of dependent arising (DA), and that is contact (*phassa*). And though it is -- it really is -- simple, it carries a lot of weight because it's a pivot point.
#SB35of10k
#SB35of10k
1/ I've mentioned before that dependent arising (DA) has two directions: backward and forward. As I've been thinking about describing the next link — contact/*phassa* — I've realized understanding the directions is critical to recognize contact's special role.
#SB33of10k
#SB33of10k
June 5, 2025 at 2:23 PM
1/ I've mentioned before that dependent arising (DA) has two directions: backward and forward. As I've been thinking about describing the next link — contact/*phassa* — I've realized understanding the directions is critical to recognize contact's special role.
#SB33of10k
#SB33of10k
5/ The Buddha then asks Paṭaliya if saying one knows magic is the same as saying they are a magician. Paṭaliya says it is the same.
April 26, 2025 at 2:42 PM
5/ The Buddha then asks Paṭaliya if saying one knows magic is the same as saying they are a magician. Paṭaliya says it is the same.
8/ The talk is one in which nutriment (*āharā*) is defined in many ways, firstly as actual food, and then as contact (*phassa*), intention (*manosañcetanā*), and finally as consciousness (*viññāṇa*). With the latter three, the Buddha is pointing to what feeds the constructed self.
April 22, 2025 at 8:54 AM
8/ The talk is one in which nutriment (*āharā*) is defined in many ways, firstly as actual food, and then as contact (*phassa*), intention (*manosañcetanā*), and finally as consciousness (*viññāṇa*). With the latter three, the Buddha is pointing to what feeds the constructed self.
1/ In considering descriptive names for the middle section of dependent arising (DA), so far we're working on "Rituals". In the last post I discussed an unproven theory of mine. In this post: evidence that the theory makes sense, in the Buddha's own voice.
#SB31of10k
#SB31of10k
April 22, 2025 at 8:54 AM
1/ In considering descriptive names for the middle section of dependent arising (DA), so far we're working on "Rituals". In the last post I discussed an unproven theory of mine. In this post: evidence that the theory makes sense, in the Buddha's own voice.
#SB31of10k
#SB31of10k
30/ Why call the middle section "Rituals"? … #SB30of10K
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
April 19, 2025 at 9:11 AM
30/ Why call the middle section "Rituals"? … #SB30of10K
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
… In part 2 of a 2-part post, one of three on calling the middle "Rituals" we focus on *vedanā* and *phassa*.
13/ The quote below notes that, in general, three elements are needed, connecting the gods to the sacrificer whose *ātman* is the focus of the ritual: the gods, the sacrificer, and the sacrificial object (which is often an animal). What connects them is contact.
![Quote from Brikan K Smith's book "Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual, and Religion" page 172
Henri Hubert and Marcel Mauss, in their classic Sacrifice: Its Nature and Function, contend that “the very nature of sacrifice” is “dependent, in fact, on the presence of an intermediary, and we know that with no intermediary there is no sacrifice.”7 This “intermediary” so crucial to, even defining of, the sacrificial ritual is the ritual victim who represents (and substitutes for) both the divine recipient of the offering and the human being who is offering:
"Sometimes there is a direct and natural representation: a father is represented by his son, whom he sacrifices, etc. In general, since a sacntier [sacnficer] is always obliged to undertake the expenses in person, there is, by virtue of this very fact, a more or less complete representation. But in other cases this association of the victim and the sacntier is brought about by a physical contact between the sacntier (sometimes the priest) and the victim. . . . Through this proximity the victim, who already represents the gods, comes to represent the sacrifier also. Indeed, it is not enough to say that it represents him: it is merged in him. The two personalities are fused together.*"](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:rwy7gautkkjh2u36ludhjfjm/bafkreifalftaxyrqpzmzia3k2ypjqdaasnifcgw6valzbegpjaappsyqji@jpeg)
April 19, 2025 at 9:03 AM
13/ The quote below notes that, in general, three elements are needed, connecting the gods to the sacrificer whose *ātman* is the focus of the ritual: the gods, the sacrificer, and the sacrificial object (which is often an animal). What connects them is contact.